Tuesday, August 6, 2013

The Summer Series: Uprising of the (Bra) Clones or What I've Learned About Fitting the Upper Cup

OK, my goal in this post is to share some of my recent bra-fitting experience, which is (as they say) generally gained the hard way. Alas, I am no exception to this wearisome rule. But if I can make this information in any way "lively" (ok, I'll settle for useful), I will be so pleased. Language in this post is unwieldy and, for this I apologize. It's ridiculously challenging to describe my observations, as evidenced by the 2 hours it's taken me to construct this. My hat is off to the technical writers of the world.

But first, the provisos:
  1. My freakin' camera has decided to act strange so, of all the pics I took yesterday (of the new black and blue bra) there is sadly not a one that isn't a blur. Amazingly, it took one clear photo of my next proposed (upper cup) alteration. The camera is still acting up so I'm going to have to use pics of the previous bra as a reference within this post. Please don't be confused. It will provide the necessary visual, I think.
  2. I did not go to school for pattern-drafting. I've been sewing for under 4 years. So please read this information critically - which is to say, if you know otherwise, do comment and let us know.
Onward.

As you may know, during this iteration of bra-making, I've made 4 muslins. None of them has fit but, in each version, I have corrected many of my challenges.

I'm happy to say that, as of muslin 4, the band and lower cups seem to really hit the mark. The gore tacks perfectly at the centre bust. I've much to tell you about the hows and whats of this, but I'll leave that for another post. What I want to write about today is the one element that continues to elude me - the upper cup.

Meet Exhibit A:

I would ask you to note the distance between where the lace upper cup ends (attached to the lower outer cup) and where the lower outer cup attaches to the strap. There's a distance of about .75 of an inch, which is apparent if you biggen up the photo. The point is that the upper cup does not attach to the lower cup AND the strap.

Exhibit B is a pic of the pattern pieces that made up version 4:


The key pattern piece to consider in this photo is the upper cup shown at the top left. The far left part of that piece (the right angled part) is the bit that attaches to the centre gore (bridge). The right part of that piece is analogous to that upper cup attachment zone, referred to in Exhibit A, and that pointy bit is the part that attaches (in fabric terms) closest to the straps. Let's call it Point X.

The Problem:

I have found, in each of my recent muslins, that the upper cup is:
  • too big (gapey along the entire top of the cup) - and getting more big with each muslin
  • kind of floppy and untethered
I have also found (and if I could show you muslin 4 - wherein the upper cup affixes to the lower cup about 1 plus inch away from where the straps start aka farther than in any other muslin - you'd really get this) that the greater the distance between the lower cup to upper cup join-point and the place where the lower cup affixes to the strap, the more gapey and floppy things get.

The Attempted Fix (which has failed increasingly with each muslin):

I have attempted to resolve this 3 times by darting the upper cup (to diminish gape) while maintaining the length of the lower edge of the upper cup (which needs to attach to the lower cups and so cannot really be lengthened or shortened without substantively altering the part of the fit that actually works).  Each time, after truing, the upper cup has got slenderer and longer towards Point X. I really don't know how. The net effect is that the piece has got oddly wider (left to right) and slimmer (top to bottom).

After pinching fabric on muslin 4 and pinning it out, and musing intensely over the pattern piece, a couple of big-time truisms occurred to me - things that may help you as a bra sewist OR as a bra buyer:
  • The support of a bra comes from the (optimal tension of the) band and the underwires. However...
  • The lift of a bra comes from the upper cup.
In case you're wondering what the fuck that means, let me clarify:  It's the relationship between a) the upper cup which attaches at the centre gore (bridge) and b) the upper cup which attaches at the side of the bra (to either the strap directly or the to lower cup near the strap) that dictates degree of lift. That connection is what gathers the breast in the sling of the bra and molds it to the outer lower cup which provides the majority of bra cup support. The upper cup is what shapes your breast and what lifts it from the cradle of the band unit.

Point X is the nexus of lift on a bra.

Some things I've learned from my own fitting experience in the last 2 weeks:
  • The farther the distance of Point X from the strap, the less lift the bra will provide. (This is less relevant to smaller and lighter breasts than to their denser and larger sisters'.)
  • The farther the distance of Point X from the strap, the wider-set the straps will sit on the bra.
If you've got small, wide, shallow breasts - that could be just the ticket. I've you've got projectile breasts having a narrow root, which sit on a small frame, that's just a bad scene.

Let's think about it "engineer-style" for a second (and this is where I remind you of proviso 2, above). If your boobs point straight forward, a far distance, but don't flare "wide" on your frame - or high on your chest - the structural likelihood is that you don't need a wide upper cup. You need a tall upper cup.

Which brings me to exhibit C:


Exhibit C is a shoddy mock up (I refuse to make it pretty till I've got something that works!) which shows:
  • Muslin 4 upper cup in black (same exact shape as that in Exhibit B) and
  • Proposed muslin 5, drawn in green
What I've done in this latest revision is:
  • Make Point X higher (so that it will affix close to the part of the strap that meets the lower cup - like almost touching it). 
  • By altering the outer, lower, upper cup curve, I've also maintained the length of the lower raw edge of the upper cup so that it will attach, theoretically, to the lower cups without issue.
  • The one other thing I've done is to alter the line of the cup where it meets the centre gore (bridge) - on the left side of the pic. In my original version, the line was angled in this way and I thought I had been inaccurate in my cloning process. However, as I continue to have too much volume at the upper inner cup, I'm beginning to believe that that line, which previously I thought was badly drawn, is actually correct. When the cups are sewn together, that line maintains the spherical shape of the lower cup unit. I mean, this alteration is a wild card, but it's not so extreme that I can't work around it in the muslin as necessary.
Is your head hurting as much as mine is?

I realize that this post is unlikely to have appealed to a wide readership. I can barely proof-read it and I wrote LIVED the fucking thing.

If anyone has anything to add to this - either to corroborate my thoughts or to refine them - I would SO appreciate it.

Till next bra, Kxo


29 comments:

  1. Okay, I've never made a bra. But your thought makes sense to me - the upper cup provides the lift - by gathering in the lower cup and attaching to lift points. In that case, why not attach it to the strap? Wouldn't it be stronger and prevent gaping? Liftier? More able to provide strong cuppage with the strap to tug on?

    Erika

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. E: The reason that I haven't done that is because I like the design line of a bit of distinction between the 2 - though I too believe the max strength would come from attaching the upper cup to the strap/lower outer cup unit. It's on my list of fixes if the "close but not touching" thing doesn't yield good enough lift.

      Having said this, after considering your comment further, I've decided I'm going to make the next muslin entirely in duoplex (stretch free fabric) and attach the upper cup to the strap. It will give me the best information about whether I've got size and shape right. After I've gone all out, I can dial it back in small degrees.

      Thanks so much for your feedback!!

      Delete
  2. omg, my head does hurt. I don't have the experience you have but I'm wondering if taking in pieces 2 and 4 would help in creating push up into the upper cup. I may sound stupid or crazy or both. I'll check back and see what you think.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Isn't it hideous? OK, if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that I shorten the seam between the inner lower cup and the outer lower cup, yes? Or do you mean the outer seams? Either way (as I think about it) it would make the cups too small. Related to this, I couldn't narrow the wires anymore than they are and changing the shape of the lower cups would have an impact on that, I believe. But let me know if I've misunderstood you, or how your proposed fix will work.

      Delete
    2. No, that's what I was thinking. I wondered if making the cups shallower would push the breast tissue up and into the .... yeah, probably not. Yeah, that's a tricky one.

      Delete
  3. Unfortunately no words of advice but I'll give you points for persistence!

    Given the fact that I simply can not find a bra that fits I've been considering making them. After seeing what you're going through, maybe not!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you! You know, making bras is a calling :-) Mind you, so is buying them!

      Delete
  4. Yup...my head hurts too...But yes, I think that will work. And I did study pattern drafting (many moons ago). Your reasoning makes sense, but I wonder if Erika (first commenter) might be correct in attaching the upper cup to the strap. Not sure and I would defer to your experience there.
    Still. Good luck, glad you made it through (the valley of the shadow and all that ; )). Hope you had a celebratory beverage when you finished.
    Can't wait to see the next one - when (WHEN) it works I expect I'll hear the shout of joy and pride here in Edmonton.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh, Jodie, thank you! I actually went back to the pattern with Erika's comment in my mind (and yours) and I altered it slightly more to make it taller (so that it will extend up towards the strap more). This should give maximal lift, if my theory is right, and I can dial back next versions, for aesthetic reasons, with awareness of how the principle works.

      Delete
  5. Have mostly followed along with your thought process here, and it does make sense to me, and am really hoping that you have turned the corner, in a manner of speaking, and will soon be successful. I am inspired to go work on my own third muslin now...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks Alison! And let me know how your muslin is going - I'm off to check out your blog.

      Delete
  6. Oh! I had a mid-post revelation about my boobs since I am working on a bustier, but now it's flitted out of my brain. Gah! Why is sewing enilghtenment so fleeting!?!?! I think maybe the upper cups are not tall enough.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I freakin' hate that! Never read about the alterations of others while you're having an epiphany!

      Delete
    2. Well, the momentary glimpse of enlightenment was triggered by something you said. So, it wouldn't have happened otherwise. Oh well. ;-)

      Delete
  7. I followed that and I see what you mean about height vs length. I'll have to check where the upper cup attaches on the patterns I have a home. How far apart is the upper cup/strap in the bra you are cloning?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm so thrilled that this makes some sort of sense to someone other than me! In the clone bra (pic here: http://line4line.blogspot.ca/2013/03/todays-word-is-thrill.html) it's about an inch between the two. BUT they use very good and strong fabric AND their strap stitching is about a thousand times more capable than mine. One of my concerns about overlapping the strap with the upper cup is adding another piece of fabric to sew through (even if it's called for).

      Delete
  8. Since you mention that you're having excess fullness in the upper inner cup, I wonder if that downward curve on the upper cup piece might be partly responsible. I just did a rub-off of one of my own bras, and the pieces look very similar except that the upper cup piece is almost straight across with a slight upward curve all the way across the bottom. If it's curving downward, the upper edge is going to be wider than the seam edge by default, which I'd think is the opposite of what you want. What would happen if you kept the length of the piece the same but straightened out that lower inner curve?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jill - I'm trying to understand but I think I'm not quite getting it. When you say the downward curve, which specifically are you referring to - the one at the outer cup or the one at the bottom seam (or something else that I interpret differently?)? Could you say this in another way - I really want to know what you mean so that I can make a potential correction! Thanks Kxo

      Delete
  9. Am sitting here studying the Empreinte bra that I'm currently wearing (with my husband looking at me with a bewildered expression on his face). The upper lace cup is attached to the bottom lower outer cup just below where the strap attaches to the bottom lower outer cup. The upper lace cup also has a 1/4 inch strip of tulle just below the top edge of the lace, double stitched to the lace, extending the full width of the lace upper cup, connecting the center gore to the lower outer cup. I"m now thinking that little strip of tulle might be the secret to the uplift that I get from this bra. Very interesting...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I wonder about that tulle also! I don't know how that bra lifts the way it does (the Lola) when the upper cup does not adhere to the strap. It's like a miracle.

      Delete
  10. Before you made that point, I was thinking but the tension on the upper cup comes from the strap so I'm glad you got there. Have you considered extending the upper cup right over into the strap with the end of the strap coming up just a little bit. Without that tension, it's more like a frill.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I was thinking the same as Myrna - if the upper cup isn't attached to the strap, how can it pull the lower cup in? I was seeing it like she does, more like a frill or edge. I bet you've gotten beyond this by now!

      Delete
    2. Hey Ladies - if you've read the later posts, you will note that I tried this and (while lift improved) it wrecked the fit and shape in a variety of other ways. Erika, I wish I could say I've got beyond it. Just the opposite.

      Delete
  11. My head definitely hurts. I have no experience to offer but I'm thinking that if the upper cup joins the strap then there will be extra tension in the upper cup which could work. I continue to be in awe of your skills, persistence and the way your brain works. Amazing!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh, you can stop feeling awe - unless awe at my ability to freak the fuck out and say NO MORE - counts :-)

      Delete
  12. The lift does not come from the upper cup, it comes from the lower cup. On this bra, the upper cup is more like a decorative edge. It's almost a two piece centre seam cup.

    If you're after more lift, take in the seam at the bottom of the bra where it meets the underwire. This will move the flesh upwards, filling more of the upper cup.

    The location of the straps changes the fit of the cups. Some bras are designed with the strap located almost directly above the apex. Some are designed with the strap at the far edge, close to the arm.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You know, I would totally have agreed with this, before I made 6 muslins in the last month, but I've discovered it by trial and error. Of course, i could be misconstruing one thing for another.

      I have considered removing a bit of lower cup fabric but the first thing it does (given that my lower bust needs sharp volume) is makes the gore pop forward.

      Furthermore, I observed, as I screwed with the placement of the upper cup, how the relative width of the straps on my own body changed dramatically. I do agree that bras are constructed in different ways to give a wider or narrower strap. Just saying that the impact of my upper cup changes also changed the positioning of the strap relative to my frame.

      Delete
  13. Having just experimented with three separate upper cup pieces I drafted for my 34E friend, I can say the upper cup makes a difference ;). The flatter it is the more lift there but it needs to be wider. There is just no way to talk about shapes without illustrations so I'll end there! I love where you are going with this--you can definitely get that lace upper cup to attach to the strap. Exhibit "C" looks closer to my eye, esp since that upper line is straight to run across the scallops.

    p.s. I haven't gone back through all of your bra posts but I hope you were able to figure out the seam covering!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When you say "the flatter the upper cup" do you mean the flatter the top seam of that cup (aka the scalloped edge) or the flatter the bottom part of the upper cup (the part that connects to the lower cups) - I think you mean the former. Interestingly, I made Exhibit C twice - and it didn't work! It was too short (even though, by mathematics, it should have fit) I came up with another work around - mid way between the two versions (4 and 5, both of which are shown in Exhibit C). It sewed properly, but it fucked with the fit of the lower outer cup. Ugh.

      Delete