You Knew It Was Only A Matter of Time

Commenter Laura raised a really interesting point on my last post, wherein I briefly compared the Prima Donna Divine to the Empreinte Melody. She said that they looked "strikingly similar". My immediate response was: No way! They're so different!

At which point, I decided to pull both bras out of the cupboard, look at them objectively side-by-side, and consider their distinguishing features. And take pics. And compare all their measurements. (What? Does this really surprise you?)

And then I was reminded of what I learned here, that the tiniest shifts in dimension can turn a bra that fits well into a hot mess (which might alter the relative appearance of similarity when applied to one's body specifically).

I won't bore you unduly - well, unless you get bored easily. If that's the case, sorry. The short story is that, yeah, I guess they do look kind of similar - like if you are comparing two lace, black, molded, seam-free, French-brand bras that cater to the small-back / full bust market. But they fit totally differently, largely because of these key dimensional distinctions:

• Strap shape and width
• Gore height
• Gore width - not so much at the top of the gore (where the bow sits) but at the mid point of the gore as it moves towards the base
• Cup depth
• Cup shape

Keep in mind that I'm comparing sister sizes (of a sort) here. These bras are both EU sized (different than UK or US sizing) and the main differences are these: The Melody was purchased in a 34 band (when I was really experiencing a lot of pain last year). The Divine is a 32. Furthermore, the Divine is technically one cup size larger than the Melody (even accounting for sister size conversions). I attribute this to the fact that Empreinte bras are notably DEEP, even the shallow ones. But I also sense that the Prima Donna Divine fits, not small, but slightly shallowly, due to the fact that the cup is molded. I have tried other, seamed Prima Donnas in my regular EU size and they have been the correct size (though wrong shape) for me. One could make the point that I can't really compare these as they're not the exact same size. All I can say is that these are each sizes that "fit" (in the main) and that they're objectively pretty close in size, which is to say "my size".

For sure, the Melody is too big in the band for me. It always was. Its saving grace is that Empreinte bands are exquisitely engineered and even a band that's too big still provides support (how I don't quite know). One other interesting detail about the Melody band vs. the Divine is that the Melody has flexible boning (on the side band) while the Divine has a reinforcement channel, but there's no actual boning within it.

One last proviso: I do NOT like - and do not wear - the Empreinte Melody which, in hindsight, is a bra, the fit of which I find unattractive on me. (It's VERY popular amongst others.) I also dislike the specific chantilly lace pattern and other elements of the design (albethey subtly different from those of the Divine). I do like the Divine - but, as mentioned zillions of times, I don't much like the shape and vibe of molded cup bras (even expensive lace ones).

OK, on with some photos...

Empreinte Melody (on top) / PD Divine (on bottom)

Wire width: The Melody is on top and the Divine on the bottom. Notice how the wires of the Melody are much wider than those of the Divine. About 0.5 inches wider. That doesn't sound like much but when one's optimal wire span is 5.8 inches, the 6.5 inch width (measured from wire tip to wire tip over the front upper cup) is meaningful. It also denotes, given that these bras are supposed to be about the same size, a shallower cup.

Cup Shape: Another thing to notice is the upper cup shape of each bra. Do you see how much softer the lace is on the Empreinte (the cups don't stand at attention the way the Divine ones do)? How much wider the span from the top of the gore to the base of the straps is (a bit hard to tell cuz the photo cuts off just below the straps on the Melody).

Empreinte adjusts wire width for every bra size (even sister sizes) so the wires on an Empreinte 34F (for example) will be differently proportioned than those on a 32G (which has the same cup volume). This is because the brand recognizes that when your back width is smaller, your cup width probably is too. And your breast height is probably shorter. So the fact that I got the Empreinte in the 34 back size disadvantaged my fit experience from the get go (which I realized, but it was a necessary evil). The bra is cut for a wider shape and a taller breast (with a lower apex) than mine. It's also better for a bottom-full breast shape. The Divine, as you can see, has more openess on the top (the span between the strap and gore top has a more acute angle).

Prima Donna Divine

Empreinte Melody

Gore Height and width: Do you see how the centre gore is wider (more space between the wires that abut at the centre) at all points on the Melody, but specifically at the mid point between the gore top and base. My breasts have a pinky width of space between them there. The Melody's gore is a good thumb width. By contrast, the Divine is narrow all the way down. Those wires actually touch until you get 3/4 of the way to the base. Intriguingly, and you would never notice it in these photos, the gore height on the Divine is actually 0.75" taller than that of the Melody. I should say, Prima Donna generally has much wider gores than Empreinte. So I don't think this is representative of the two brands. I find myself in the unusual position of defending a brand I don't much like (Prima Donna) and criticizing a brand I generally love (Empreinte). I guess that's the bitch of impartiality.

For those interested in the darting on the Divine cups (which enhance depth): You can just make out the dart that comes out at @90 degrees at the centre of the gore toward the centre cup (look at the left cup). I can just make out the dart at the base of the gore (see right cup). It's next to invisible, I think you'd agree...

PD Divine

Empreinte Melody

Cup Depth and Material: Above are close ups of the lace on each bra. I find the lace on the Melody to be kind of matronly in its geometric-patterned lower cup. It's also slinky and soft to the touch (like the fabric of the molded Fantasie 4520). The fabric of the Divine is actually firm - though not padded or lined. It is less comfortable, at least at this point, though not uncomfortable to me. As per the first photo in the post, the cups maintain their shape unless flattened (at which point they stay flat). You can see by the way my fist sits in each cup that the Melody is wider and shallower than the Divine and that there is much more space between the apex and the underwire of the Melody than between the apex and the upper cup. There's more evenness in the Divine cup.

The depth of the Melody is 10.8" (shallower than my preferred 11.0 - 11.5") vs the depth of the Divine, which is 11.25". Having said this, molded bras fit strangely and shallowly, whatever the technical depth. That's the curse of no seams. So the Divine is a great shape and depth, even though the gore tacks only lightly (my preference is for MEGA tack, as you may know). Note: The Fantasie 4520 (also molded) tacks lightly too. Getting a strong tack with a molded bra, if you have a centre projected, deep shape, is almost impossible.

By contrast, the Melody most notably reveals its fit flaw, on me, with a gore that really doesn't tack at all (even if it's not far from the chest wall, and even if it will tack when I hold the gore in place). This isn't because of wussy wires - the wires on the Empreinte are zillions of times stronger than those of the PD - but because there's not enough immediate projection at the centre cup. More than a size issue, it's a shape one. Perhaps the Melody bra in 2 cup sizes up (and 1 band size down) might be a better fit. But I doubt it would ever be as good as that of the Divine.

PD Divine on the left (next to my birth mark), Empreinte Melody on the right

Strap width: Well, even if the other distinctions in shape are unobservable to the untrained eye, the difference in strap width certainly is. In truth, the Empreinte strap (the wider one) is a very good option for women who struggle with chronic pain conditions or who have very heavy, dense breasts which routinely leave them with indents at the shoulder, on removal of their bras. Even with my pain, I found the Melody strap width and padding to be unnecessary for me. Moreover, my breasts aren't light, but I don't get strap marks on my shoulders at the end of the day. I attribute this to my individual proportions and the fact that I wear firm bands (which, as we know, are there to do the work that many large-breasted women leave to the straps).

Another potential problem with the Melody padding and graded strap width is that they render those straps only partially adjustable. So if you're short from upper bust to shoulder, you're likely to reach your shorten-limit pretty quickly, at which point the bra's pretty useless. Not great from the price point perspective. The Melody bra costs about the same amount as the Divine - they retail at about $185 CDN after tax.. I should clarify that both bras are very well-made, so it's not as if the Empreinte straps would stretch as quickly as those of many other brands, but it's a consideration.

By contrast, the Divine straps are actually some of the nicest (and most comfortable) I've come across. They're very firm. It's hard to see but they have little nodules running down the centre (in part, design, in part to affix the sliders on the strap to prevent strap extension with wear). They're on the thicker side of the equation, 0.7" all along, but nothing compared with the Melody's 1.2" width at the widest point (on the shoulder top), tapering to 0.8" at each end. Having said this, the Divine straps are beautifully proportioned vis a vis the rest of the bra, so they work really well.

On balance, the Divine is a well-proportioned shape for me, while the Melody is too wide, too bottom-full and too shallow. Yeah, they may look exactly the same at a glance, but on careful review,  IMO, their distinctions are glaring.

But I'm curious to know, now that you've seen them deconstructed, do they look the same? Let's talk!

My Lingerie Wardrobe: The Basics and What Taking Stock Has Taught Me

Warning: This post is endless. And it's all about bras. Proceed at your own risk.

I highly encourage everyone to do an annual inventory of the bra wardrobe. It really is an awesome way to learn more about yourself as a shopper, to learn about your changing tastes, sizes and needs. Furthermore, if you take the (non-negligible) amount of time required to enter in all of your specific bra info into Bratabase, you'll have so much good information at your fingertips (never mind that you'll be helping the world). More on how I use this database in an upcoming post...

What I've learned this go-round is:

• Pretty well every bra I own has 90 per cent of the same measurements (Bratabase has facilitated my knowledge of this fact). It surprises me how consistent this is, given that my bras come in different sizes, styles and brands.

• I need to improve my bra extender situation. I want all the colours in 2x3 ad 3x3 hooks and eyes. These aren't expensive and might make the difference between keeping a bra with a 32 band (that now I find too snug) or putting it in the "to be repurposed" drawer.

• I really don't need any more beige/neutral bras (remember the drought of 2 years ago? Well, it's a thing of the past, apparently). Note: This has not prevented me from buying 2 new beige/neutral bras. Why? I need one to fit perfectly, beautifully and upliftedly on days when I can't handle a tight band (thank you, Empreinte Daisy) and I want to try a new brand (Avocado Essentia).

• By my standards, I need a few replacement black basics. Currently I own 4 (one of which is on the edge). I've resolved this issue by purchasing 3 new ones (Avocado, Mirabelle / Masquerade, Persia / Cleo Minnie). This also meets the goal of "online bra shopping adventure". Gotta love that.

• Of all of the new bras I've purchased, in recent memory, only two of them has 2x3 hooks. I'm not into them anymore (except if they manage to hit a sweet spot, band-wise). Having done some fairly extensive research, I've learned that only Empreinte does 3x3 consistently in a wide range of sizes (not simply the large cups and large bands). Other brands are hit and miss. If Ewa Michalak and Avocado work (TBD), there are some 3x3 offerings in those brands - and they're affordable.

• I've outgrown some undies. Happily, only the ones that were on the cusp of too-snug to begin with. Have had to replace those or I won't wear the bras - ask me how I know.

• I have pretty awesome taste in lingerie - if I do say so myself! :-) I still love all the things I loved when I originally bought them. Or I've divested myself of them. But, in truth, most of the bras I've bought are, by my estimation, GORGEOUS. I give them away for reasons other than taste mismatch.

• My cup size is officially one size larger than it was 2 years ago. For a long while, I was hovering on the cusp but I'm not any longer. This will likely make it easier for me to buy. Given that (IMO) I don't require additional full bust volume (like, to improve the quality of my life), I would prefer that this were not the case. But it is. Hormonal fluctuation is a bitch. I'm going to give my body the benefit of the doubt. When I finish this phase of my life, I'm confident that things will settle (much as they did after puberty and childbirth) and that I will return to my exceedingly stable (in the scheme of things) cup size. You'll just have to stick around to see :-)

• My underbust measurement is unchanged (30 inches) - it just feels wider, probably because I can't stand anything snug.

• For my comfort, I like to have 5-7 beige/neutral and 5-7 black sets - all perfectly-fitted, natch. I've very specific about when I wear what. I have bras for briefings, bras for days when I'll spend time writing at my desk, bras to match an outfit (either craziness under monochrome or the other way around). Lately, I'm not feeling so upbeat, so I've noticed my interest in the crazy (fashion) bras has waned. Since the latest cull, I've got 8 of this sort remaining - a couple of which you might consider basic, given that they're solids / not bright. If I'm going to expand my lingerie wardrobe any further, in the next year, it will be in the fashion category. (There's an argument that it's a bit on the wan side.) Mind you, some people would consider 8 fashion bras to be more than adequate, especially with 15 neutrals to round out the story. BTW, I also own 2 sports bras. I've torched the lounge bras. I cannot wear ugliness, especially if it's not comfortable.

But on with the details, in no particular order. Note: These bras are shown without undies because, as neutrals, they're generally matchable with many brands. I'm going to rate them against each other, but keep in mind that they all fit very well. The ratings aren't about fit on me, but about how much use I get from them and which are my personal faves...

Kristin's Basic Beige / Neutral Bras:

The Outlier: Bravissimo Alana

I wrote a review of this bra here.

Why is this bra in my current wardrobe? It's a totally gorgeous shade of pink - not beige! Goes really well with my skin tone. It's got terrific support and great uplift. It's got 3 hooks! Very well made. Very comfortable! Totally pretty.

Why is it an outlier? See the review for details. Effectively, it's too shallow at the centre cup (you can see that if you compare this bra to all of the others you're about to see. Notice how it doesn't puff up fabric from the centre gore - it's largely flat there.) It's got the right volume for me, just not the right shape. Also, since my back decided to stop liking snug bands, this 32 has moved into extender territory for me...

Note: You must get the matching undies. Mine are on their way from UK now. I've only worn this bra 3 times so far, despite what I love about it, because the pink is totally unmatchable.

Rating: B This bra isn't the "most" anything. But it does give outstanding lift with comfort.

The Warhorse: Fantasie Smoothing 4520

I've written numerous reviews of this bra. Here's an index...

Why this bra is in my current wardrobe? Well, it's one of the only 2 seam-free (molded) bras I own. (Note: I do not own one lined or padded bra so both of my seam-frees are soft cup with wires.) It gives a totally smooth and round look under snug tops. It never shows through. In the right size it's comfortable. It's got amazing projection for a molded bra - most molded bras are shallow - and even when they're not, they carry most volume in the outer breast. I need it at the inner breast. I generally own it in 2 different sizes (because it's not so forgiving in the cups or back).

Rating: A+ for wearability, if nothing else.

The Upscale Newbie: Empreinte Daisy

I've written a review of this bra here.

Why this bra is in my current wardrobe: Well, it is PERFECTION in the cups. It's gorgeous. And it's utterly comfortable, particularly in the band. As mentioned, when I need something that's going to look as good as it feels, this is the beige bra I'll go for. I will definitely replace this one when it gives out (which won't be for years, if my other Empreintes are anything to go by).

Note: You must get the matching undies.

Rating: A++ It would get 3 pluses if it were affordable to many.

The Pin Up Girl: Triumph Doreen

Why this bra is in my current wardrobe: Say what you will about this bra - it's awesome when you want a vintage look. This is the ONLY unwired bra I've ever worn that actually keeps my boobs apart. Given my inner-cup immediate projection and size, that's miraculous. It's apparently the world's most popular bra. (I can't verify that claim.) It's German-engineered. It's made of something like 54 pieces (which is why it's so contoured).

It's also insanely comfortable with 3 hooks and eyes. It gives tremendous uplift (albeit in a pointy shape - which I realize isn't popular these days). There is NO bounce. It's got the length of a midline bra, not a regular one. It's the ultimate sweater bra.

Challenges? Well, it doesn't come in small band/large cup combos. Mind you, the band is very firm (but comfortable!) so you could totally size up in the band. Even the snug-band loving Krissie would say this. It's super-warm. Not a summertime bra! It's also impossible to wear under most every neckline but the crew and the turtleneck. It's not like a modern repro - it's seriously old-school. So if you don't like that, it ain't for you.

Rating: B+ It would get a higher rating if it were more wearable. But when it fits the bill, it's terrific.

The Old Friend: Freya Phoebe

Why this bra is in my current wardrobe: This is the oldest bra I own and it still fits snugly more than 10 years later. I've gone through phases where it was my ONLY beige bra so I wore it multiple times a week. It's like a magical bra. Regardless of my size and shape, it has fit me perfectly - and it still looks new?! It's an original Freya - from back when the quality was high, and the price point was higher. Back before Freya started catering to the teen boobs and lost its edge. 

You probably won't be able to find this one on eBay. Trust me, I've tried. I've also tried to find the other styles made in the same fabric (different pattern/colourways) and same cut. They're gone, gone, gone.

The lace is beautiful, the colour is too. It's got an open shape at the upper cup, which allows one with even to full on top breasts to wear it through various monthly fluctuations. This is accomplished with firm lace, not the flimsy stretch stuff they're putting on all of the Panaches these days. The wires are a perfect width. The fabric has no give, but it's not industrial-seeming in any way. It's completely invisible under tight clothing. It's one of the first wearable bras I ever bought that made me feel completely sexy.

Rating:  A++

The One To Wear To a Picnic: Freya Lacey

Why this is in my current wardrobe: Why not, I say. Look, I don't go to a lot of picnics, but occasionally I want a girly bra - one that can go under most anything. This is a nice plunge (not too extreme the way the Panaches and Cleos tend to be). The band is quite firm for a Freya (again, this is an older model - came out as the brand began to lose it). The undies are very comfortable. This bra is fairly polarizing. Most people have a hate-on for it.

Note: You must get the matching undies. This beige is more taupey than beige and would be a nightmare to try to match - never mind with dots.

Rating: B It's hard to get excited by something this "country".

But we're not done! Now there are the black bras to contend with.

The French Mistress: Empreinte Roxane

I've written about this one numerous times. See the index.

Why is this bra in my current wardrobe: Because it's fucking sexy. It fits awesomely. It lifts, it supports, it gives great shape under clothing. It's luxe. It's sheer but strong. The band is comfortable (3x3). When you put on this bra, you're ready to take on the world - and have a quickie while you're at it. Alas, it's discontinued but if you can find it - don't be stupid. Just buy it. (Then email me to let me know where you got it.)

Rating: A++

The Pin Up Girl: Triumph Doreen

Why this is in my current wardrobe: This is one of the only bras I've got doubles of. What can I say? When I'm wearing cashmere in February, it's a good choice. It's also fun for getting my Bettie Page on. Same pluses and minuses exist with the black as with the beige (see above).

Rating: B+

The Desperate Measure: Empreinte Melody

Why this is in my current wardrobe: Well, desperation, partially. I needed a 3x3, black bra with an incredibly comfortable band STAT or I was going to lose my mind. And, given the dearth of black bra options I have in my current wardrobe, it does see its fair share of wear. Of all the Empreintes, I find this one particularly unlovely. It borders on dowdy - unheard of with this brand! It's incredibly comfortable (straps are padded?!) but it's molded - and it's not deep at the centre cups. The gore only notionally tacks. I'll happily phase it out as soon as I have a better alternative. Then, if someone else likes it (and there are those who love this style), it will find a happy new home. Note: I do LOVE the version of this bra with satin ribbon around the upper cups - it's a plunge and it's gorgeous. When I was between sizes, I couldn't get it to fit - the band was too big or the cup was too small. May give it another try soon. See - this is why you take an inventory!

Rating: B-

The Siren: Empreinte Lola

Why this is in my current wardrobe: Because it opened my eyes to Empreinte. Because I looked long and hard to find it and it was my first experience of pure sex converging with utter practicality. Because, when I bought it the fit, on me, was unparalleled. (There are few bras that give you the kind of boobs on a plate look that this thing has going on.) Because, if I were a princess, I'd have them make it for me in all the colours of the rainbow. Because the lace is spectacular. Because the band is comfortable. Because it wears like a tank.

Alas, I bought this when I commonly wore a 30 band and I think this bra is on the cusp of being too small in both back and cup. I don't think I'll be able to part with it, even if I have to retire it. It represents a wonderful moment in time.

Rating: A++

So, there you go, the longest post EVAH. I do hope you've enjoyed it.

Today's questions: Which is your fave and why? Do you own any of these? If yes, what's your experience of the bra in question? Do you think I'm a nut for having spent 2 hours documenting all of my neutral bras? Let's talk - seriously - after all this work, I'd love some good conversation. :-)