OK, back to scheduled programming - let's talk about the arcane bra-fitting rule that seems to be alive and well (and continually promoted) by a large subset of the industry.
That rule is: to fit a bra back, measure your under bust, add 4 inches (or 5 - if your under bust is an odd number of inches) and that's your back size. Associated with this is the cup size rule that states the difference in inches between under bust and bra-covered full bust measurement determines what letter you wear. One inch different is an A cup, and every additional inch equals an additional cup.
This might have been a prudent guideline in 1940, when bra materials were much less forgiving than they are now i.e. before Lycra and numerous other textile advances, but these days, bra bands are designed to stretch to the actual under bust measurement enumerated on the tag. Additionally, modern multiple-piece cup construction in malleable fabric makes this element of the fitting that much easier.
A snug band, as I've said so many times (as have many others), is the key to structural integrity. Those straps aren't holding up your boobs. It's the confluence of under wire and band (or just band, when there's no under wire). Natch, you want to have the ultimate snugness, within reason, on the loosest hooks when you buy, because that band is going to stretch over time and you don't want to waste your money on a bra back that will be too loose in 2 months.
Let's consider the terrible disservice that the antiquated bra-back rule does, when added to the cup size rule. If one's back size is a 32 and she adds 4 inches, that would put her in a 36 band. If the difference between her under bust and her full bust measurement is 5.5 inches, that posits she'd be an E cup (btw, the inches rule is a guideline, breast density and volume have a notable impact on how the inches correlate to numbers, I'm just using some basic assumptions here.)
We know from previous posts that there's an inverse relationship between back size and cup size. Remember: 30F=32E=34D=36C in terms of cup volume. So, a 36E bra has the same cup volume as a 34F or a 32G. If one's actual band size - which bands actually correlate to these days - is 32 and yet she wears a 36 band, the volume associated with that band size is going to be about 3 sizes larger than her own. And yet, the band is going to be loose and unsupportive and the whole thing's going to be a disaster.
To recap, the woman who should be in a 32E (or thereabouts, depending on brand and a few other nuances) will be wearing a bra cup having the same volume as a 32G cup (way too big) and the band will do fuck all to keep anything in check. The horror!
How is this bra going to look? Well, it really depends a lot on the actual woman wearing it, but the likelihood is that the centre gore (where the cups meet at the chest front) will pull away from the body (there's nothing to hold it in position with a loose band) and the cups will hang away from the breasts (the volume isn't there). Additionally, the straps will likely be too wide set for the 32 back frame. The under wires will be too wide for the breasts and the wings (side band) will pucker. The impact on fit under clothing will be lumps and sag.
You don't need to be this woman.
One of my self-professed "small breasted" blog friends asked whether, by this logic, she would be a size 30D. As I understand it, her under bust is a 29, her full bust is 33. According to this logic, she would probably be a 30D. Pls. note - a 30D bra is a bra for a woman of very modest endowment. It's much smaller than, for example a 36D, which is still fairly small on the modern bust scale. Now, were she to get fitted (which I strongly advise) she'd probably try on a range of sizes - 30D, 32C, 30C. She might be pretty shocked by the snugness of fit in a 30 band, since she's been wearing a 34 her whole life. It might really bother her, or it might appeal. I love the feel of a tight band. It doesn't irritate me at all. But many other women are sensitive to the wires and hooks - particularly as they adjust, having never worn anything adequately supportive in the past.
This isn't fully science. It's not all art. Those of us who sew understand how shockingly nuanced fit is - and we're generally not fitting anywhere near ultra-close. There is no room for error here. Happily, there is no need for it either.
Do share your experiences, please! Having been fitted, did you learn your back size was way off? Did you used to hate tight bands, but now you've adjusted? Do you have a bra fitting issue you want to share (who knows, we might be able to offer up some advice)?
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I am still struggling to find a great bra in my post-nursing life, because my breasts simply don't have the tone they once did, making certain things harder about fitting. I need to make sure the cup is big enough and has full enough coverage for me, otherwise I have a weird bra-line boob ripple that ruins the line I have in mind for dressing. No more lovely demi-cups for me unless I want to be Booby McCleavage, and I rarely do.
ReplyDeleteI've had some lovely fitting from longline bras, (mostly purchased at Women Within online with the structured pointyish cups needing some streamlining)but strangely my best fit routinely is from buying a 36 DD and then extending it with a 2" bra extender, because the alternate fit of a 38 DD is occasionally terrible. I'm still ardently searching for a great fit, because I still totally love my boobs at 43, and want them to look perky and appropriate to how they bless my stature, you know?
I seriously wish I could find a longline bra in my size. Freya and Panache (I think it's Panache) have just developed a couple of them but they're padded or they start at a 34 back. I think they produce the most attractive line under clothing.
DeleteAnd how awesome to want to buy gorgeous stuff to support your gorgeous self. Way to show that you don't need to stop caring about uplifted breasts after children and/or becoming 40.
Interesting . . . and I can see how that makes sense. I would say, then, that I've been fitted large and I'd like to try going a band size smaller, just to check out the theory.
ReplyDeleteA significant difference I noticed buying bras in Paris last year was that the SA advised wearing it at the loosest fitting, only moving to the others as the elastic eventually stretched. In Canada, SAs always insist on fitting at the middle hook which, of course, allows some flexibility for one or two days a month, but also pushes more quickly towards bra replacement and wastes an inch of band (works for them!)
I can't believe they still try to get you to buy a bra that fits on the middle hook. So not cool!
DeleteSing it, sister! This is great advice.
ReplyDeleteI actually get fitted at least twice a year. One thing that's always baffled me is why women accept that their jeans or dress size will vary across brands and over their lifetime, but not that their bra size will. Right now, I'm *mostly* wearing a 32D, but I have several 34Ds, at least one 34C, and just yesterday I tried on some 32DD's that fit beautifully. (Yes, I own lots of bras. I love my breasts. And lingerie. And nothing makes me feel prettier than fun new underwear. Yay!)
I think with all the new fabrics that you mentioned, it's important to note that a bra shouldn't be worn 2 days in a row. Otherwise, it will weaken the fibers and stretch out much faster, shortening the bra lifespan.
I know! How can that be? You wouldn't try to get into a size 10 pair of pants if your size had changed to a size 12 or a size 8. You'd either want to flatter your smaller shape with a smaller pair or increase your size in order to enable the zip to close easily.
DeleteAs we age (which, let's face it, we all are), breasts change density, direction, size, shape. Shoulder slope often changes. Back size differs. My under bust grew 2 inches after having a kid and it never went back. My ribs actually stick out at my under bust because my kid pushed them that way.
I'm always amazed at the looks I get when I tell people I'm a 36DDD (which BTW, what is up with so many D's?) because like you mentioned I'm not terribly well endowed, but a 36DDD fits perfect nearly every time (some styles vary though). Especially when the gal is significantly more chesty than me and says that she "only wears a 38D" or some such nonsense. Always makes me wonder if I shouldn't try and intervene on her behalf. I haven't had good luck with that whole XX=YY=ZZ thing though, I'm a 36DDD, and nothing else fits. ??
ReplyDeleteAnd for a LONG time I wore nothing but sports bras, and it was really hard to adjust to wearing an underwire again. Oddly enough, now sports bras feel uncomfortable because they smoosh and shove everything into my armpit. And it takes For.Ev.Er to retrain that tissue to go back where it belongs.
I prefer UK sizing. They don't do all the Ds! If you're in the right size, how awesome. Just be aware of the propensity to change - it might happen at some point - so that you can revisit sizing if necessary.
DeleteI have a question now....I'm on the mailing list for Bravissimo, and I covet their designs, but I've always been scared to order something from there and have it not fit. I kind of stick with the same brand (it's the only one that's easy to find in my size semi-locally) which is Lunaire. So for example, if I emailed Bravissimo, would they be able to tell me which brands would fit most similarly to the Lunaire? Because I've learned the hard way that not all brands are equal, even some styles of the Lunaire don't fit the same as others, but I've learned to identify which ones work and avoid the ones that don't. Argh! Not being able to try them on terrifies me.
DeleteGreat question. I haven't tried Bravissimo (though I've heard good things). I know that Figleaves would help on this front - and you can have an email chat if you don't want to call (though they do have a 1800 number). I imagine Bravissimo would be the same. With Figleaves, the shipping is 5 pounds 50 and, though you would have to pay to send something back if it didn't fit, they'll continue to send you items at no charge as long as they're associated with the same order. So you're paying to return, but the size they send next is no charge for shipping. I think it's worth the potential charge to find something new that may rock your world.
DeleteCan you go to a boutique in your area, get fitted and try on a bunch of stuff (they'll want to fit, even if you know your size), and see what other stuff may work in what sizes. I think it's good to support local business, when they assist, but if the cost is too high (it usually is), I don't have a problem buying once from that boutique and taking the information to the online universe.
What's the model of the Lunaire? If I have a look I might be able to suggest some other brands that will work. Note: I can't guarantee the sizing will be the same cuz I don't know the brand or your body, but I might be able to help you kick start the process...
I've contacted bravissimo about bra sizing before and they were very helpful. However I wasn't asking about sizing comparison across brands, but checking which styles were the same shape as one I already had. However, when I've been in the store the assistants are quite knowledgeable about which brands fit large/small so I recon it's definitely worth contacting them.
DeleteThanks for that info, Rachel!
DeleteI'm still inclined to disagree with the idea that your band size should equal your underbust measurement. I've been professionally fitted in about five different independent, specialty lingerie shops by innumerable salespeople, and I'd say a better guideline is +1"-+3". (I only mention all those salespeople in order to support that I'm not just choosing to wear a large band... I've been told countless times that it is the correct fit.)
ReplyDeleteI don't mean to be argumentative by repeating this opinion, it's just that in my experiences wearing bras both too large and too small, too small was by far worse. The big eye-opener for me in being correctly sized wasn't just that a bra could fit, but that it could fit without causing pain or discomfort. I wish this realization for all women!
Please continue to say this! I'm not the only voice in the matter. Of course, I'm pretty bossy but I recognize that different bodies have different needs. My post is not to take away from your fitting experience. The difference between you and many others who might read this is that they have not been fitted professionally. Your perspective is echoed by a number of others.Just because it's not mine, doesn't mean it isn't valid for someone else who may be reading these comments.
DeleteLove the spirit with which you discuss these things. Thanks for creating such a safe place for discussion and debate!
DeleteI usually wear my measured size 34C for most brands. They seem to provide the most comfort for all day wear. I tend to go down a band size for strapless. I don't like a lot of internal padding to push my breasts up, so if I really like a padded bra I often by D cup as they tend to have WAY less push up factor.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Out of curiosity, does your under bust correlate with a 34?
DeleteI was wearing a 34 band, because I don't like to be squeezed. My bras were stretched out of shape after two years of wear (horrors, I don't replace mine every six months, as the bra people would have me do). I never bought into the "have yourself fitted every five seconds" idea as the bra people would have me do. But I did get a measurement last year, and was told I wore a 32. So I bought two 32s. The bands were so (insert expletive here) tight I was in abject misery and could only wear my new bras for an hour at a time. I had to take them off after that to rest my rib cage. The cup sizes were right, though. C. I'd been wearing a 34B, and when re-measured, found I was a 32C.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I wore these awful 32 bras until they stretched out, and they were fine. Then they gave way and began riding up. I got a different brand when the time came to replace them, and I was in heaven. Then I tried on another 32C of the squeezy brand, and found that it felt entirely different from the two original squeezy 32 from that brand. I can't figure out why. Were they made in different factories? Did my body change?
It's anyone's guess. But I do know this—I am better in a 32, and the C does my ego a bit of good. I've always considered myself "flat."
Isn't it weird how bras of different brands do that 32 band differently? It's often about the give of the fabric, I find. Maybe your ability to manage the snugness increased? Maybe you changed? Maybe the bra you originally bought was mislabeled?
DeleteSecretly, I think 32C is the optimal breast size (though of course I think all of the sizes have their pluses - no pun intended) It's big enough to wear the "real" bras (so many women with small breasts complain about the dearth of those). It's not too big to wear just about anything you choose. This size tends not to sag with age (shape and person depending). All of the bras I covet look perfect in 32C. BTW, 30F is another of my fave sizes. Very voluptuous but still easy to fit.
Someday when I am ambitious, I shall get properly fitted, I promise. ;) Hey, if I ever make it to TO, you can totally take me bra shopping. I know the 34 bands are quite loose, but I do suspect I would find a 30 shockingly tight---I'm not used to wearing any kind of band most of the time. My biggest problem is usually with the underwire vs. cup volume, however---I'm hopeful (perhaps unwisely) that a larger cup size on a smaller band might have a wider underwire for the same volume of cup. My most recent bra purchase was a heavily padded 34C. The band is very loose (by the "fist test"), but the underwires are wide enough, and the padding seems to fill in the volume that my chest itself doesn't have.
ReplyDeleteWe have a date the next time one of us is in the city of the other. But really, you can get 32 bands at department stores. I think that Huit does them. So does Calvin Klein, if I'm not mistaken. Go look for them!
DeleteI guess I've been lucky-- I've never been fitted, but I've always just tried on bras until I found one that fit well and provided the support I wanted. The fitting formulas never made any sense to me.
ReplyDeleteMy underbust measures 32 but I do wear a 36 and I can't go any tighter than that. A 36 on the tightest hook is pretty darn tight.
The problem I have is not-enough fullness on top to fill in a full-cup bra. But with a demi, there's always an unattractive bulge at the upper edge (regardless of cup size). I've heard that balconet bras might fit better, and I plan to try some on the next time I go lingerie shopping.
Ms. M: That's really interesting. It seems that the plus 4 rule may work for you - it has to work for someone! What cup size are you wearing? Maybe we can suggest a few options for you to try next time you're buying.
ReplyDeleteI usually buy a 36D. The two brands I've bought recently were Chantelle and Calvin Klein. The Chantelles (full-cup t-shirt with foam cups) feel great and support well, but there's a definite gap at the top third of the cup. If not for the foam, I'd probably see baggy wrinkles. The CKs are comfy but are baggy in the upper half. But I've tried on 36C and I was spilling out the sides.
DeleteI find molded cup bras impossible to wear - and I feel they fit many shapes of breasts badly. If you think about it, molded bras do not have the benefit of seams to either increase support or to conform to your shape. They tend to cover the breast, not to hold against it.
DeleteI know you say that the 34 backs are too tight but I recommend you try a few other brands besides Chantelle in 34 back size - or even just a few other styles within the CK and Chantelle lines, to ensure it isn't a tight back challenge you have with those particular brands.
I suspect a 34D or 34R in a 3 piece cup, by a brand known for architecture (like Lejaby) might work. But it may take a lot of trying in a few diff sizes (i.e. 36C, 34D, 34E and others, potentially) before you find the right one.
Without seeing your shape it's hard for me to comment but I do feel intuitively that a 36 back on a 32 frame is probably too large to provide support. Do your breasts tend to splay to sides when you are not wearing a bra? Some bras are really geared towards full upper breasts, others work better for breasts that sit wider on the frame, or which tend to have fullness on the sides.
Email if you want to chat about this further.
Should have also mentioned 34DD as a potential size...
DeleteSeems I'm back again... I think this might be a good bra to try in the variety of sizes I was suggesting: http://www.figleaves.com/uk/product.asp?product=Charnos-Cherub-underwired-full-cup-bra&product_id=CS-CE001&size=34C&colour=Black
DeleteI own it - it's very supportive on the sides. It's a full cup (a little too full to be my preferred shape) but it's got a good way of meeting the breasts at the tops of the cups.
All of the bras I bought last year were fitted snug on the middle hook and are now too big on the tightest hooks. The straps are constantly slipping. And I bought four really high end bras. Disappointed!
ReplyDeleteThank you for clearing up the confusion and explaining how to get a proper fit.
That sucks. You may need to go down a size in order to get snug on the loosest hook. I've had some of my bras for years and the hooks are still tight - some of them on the loosest hook! But, like I said, I like tight. And I also rotate my bras often. Some of them only get worn a couple of times a month.
DeleteI was a little reluctant to buy a lot of bras since my intention was/is to lose some weight, but perhaps that's part of the issue, over wearing. I do hand wash them. I think last year I wouldn't have wanted them to fit tight but since then I got religion. I want them tight so the straps don't slip. That's a more secure feeling.
ReplyDeleteAlways own at least a couple of bras in the size you currently "are". There's no law that says you can't store them away when they don't fit. Because, from personal experience, it's very possible they will fit again at another time.
DeleteI find your posts on this subject very interesting. I am too a "small frame" with bigger boobs, and find it so frustrating that so many brands stop stocking larger cup sizes in the smaller band sizes.
ReplyDeleteI aalso agree with you that the "professional fitting" is a bit of a joke, but sometimes when they say you need to go down a size they're wrong. I'm usually a 32 band, although have to get them on the middle hook not loosest, but once the assistant persuaded me to get the 30 band equivalent (going up a cup size etc etc). I could never wear the bra for more than about an hour because it actually bruised me, even on the loosest hook it was just way too tight.
But then I also found a penache in the right size (and 32 back) and the sides of the underwiring for the cups was too high under my arms and would bruise me too.
However, i'm currently good for bra's at the moment because I found a freya style that fits really well and ordered a stack of them in different colours from Bravissimo. Which also has the added bonus of meaning that it doesn't matter which bra i'm wearing when fitting clothes i'm making as they're all the same shape.
I'm intregued about your band size theory though, and will try to remember to measure myself when i get home to compare.
Rachel: What's the Freya that works on you? I'm curious because I wear many of those styles. I've been fascinated by the many readers who are writing to say that backs of their actual under bust sizes i.e. 30 band for a 30 inch under bust are totally painful and leave marks. I've found a few articles that suggest certain women just don't have any padding on the side cups at the underwire and so friction plus bones against (let's face it) boning is a challenging proposition. Intriguingly, my rib cage is distended at the sides from when my in utero child pushed them out for 9 months (I'm short waisted, she was insanely long at birth). I wonder if I can handle the tight bands because that area has been altered and I'm always trying to bring it back in line? Food for thought...
ReplyDeleteTo clarify - if you are a woman having a very lean torso but your chest is large, the snug fitting band may just be too hard against your body. No fat to get between the two hard surfaces. I've also read in a variety of sources that after a few wearings (which are not pleasant) the bra stretches and the challenge abates. But some of you who have suffered through this may disagree - I'm not promoting this, just discussing it. Note: I think you may need to do the wearing experiment for a few 8 hour days. Wearing a bra for a couple of hours occasionally is not going to stretch it out.
DeleteThe original freya one I have is the pollyanna, and then also got the Jolie. The ones that bravissimo suggested as being the same fit are the Trudie,
DeleteCindy, Naomi, Eloise, Edith and Nancy.
I ended up buying the Edith, Naomi, Trudie and Faye. They're all very similar except the Faye which for some reason seems to have a slightly larger band (I have to wear it on the tightest hook), and the Trudie seems to have a very slightly more "pointy" cup shape.
I haven't ever really noticed any of my bras to "stretch out". when i've had to replace them for reasons other than changing size myself it's nearly always been because the underwiring has worn through it's casing and impaled me (even then i usually stitch it up a few times before getting rid completely). Even wearing them for quite a while hasn't stretched the bands out. and trust me, with the 30 back one i tried, i wore it all day a few times with no improvement. (it was so pretty i wanted to be able to wear it, and i spent 30 quid on it while i was a poor student, i wasn't going to give up without a fight.
Intriguingly, I haven't bought a Freya in quite a while - I've been branching out for more variety. The ones I have now are, most of them, no longer available - either in shape or name. Do you remember the pink Millie. Man, I love that one. I also have 2 or 3 in a shape (and truly awesome fun patterns like baby blue zebra and a liberty floral) I don't think they make anymore. I've tried to find examples online but I can't. Why do I cut out the tags?? Oh, and then there's the Tamsin, also discontinued - or remade in another name? http://www.polyvore.com/freya_tamsin_underwired_balcony_bra/thing?id=9035960
DeleteI do have the ubiquitous Arabella - which is a totally gorgeous bra that also happens to keep everything together. And the soft cup Dotty - which I've only seen online in a nursing bra version, but which is made in a regular version too.
I feel like my time with Freya may be waning because they really haven't shaken up the shapes or sizes in a long time. Time was, I was so grateful to have that option. But new brands are coming out all the time and I'm sick of seeing the same 3 styles from Freya purporting to be new - esp. as they've discontinued a few of their best versions.
Ooh, I had a thought about this tonight. Or, rather, a question. If one buys a bra that feels too tight and somehow successfully stretches it out (either through wear, or around a chair or dressform), what do you think that does to the bra itself in the long term? Does stretching it to the point that it loses its recovery mean that it will ultimately have a shorter life, as you're prematurely wearing it out? OR, will its life be longer, because it won't stretch to the point of being unwearably large before it actually breaks down entirely? Hmm.
ReplyDelete(I'll have to actually try stretching out my 32 band bra in the next week or two, and report back as to whether or not its successful.)
You know, I've thought of this also and I really don't know. I suspect it shortens the lifespan as stretching the elastane is stretching. At a certain point, it won't have the ability to recover and the more often you stretch it, the faster you get to that stage.
DeleteNonetheless, better to stretch the bra that's miserably tight in the hopes of giving it a new life on your body, than leaving it to languish in the drawer, right?
Ok, I measured myself when I got home, my ribcage is about 30" snug breathing normally, 31" if i breathe in deeply, and i wear a 32 band, usually on the middle hook (as the 30s i've tried are too tight). So yeah, definitely not 4-5" bigger!
ReplyDeleteAlthough this does kinda prove my theory that i'm a 31.
Interesting... Strikes me you're wearing it about 2 inches larger, which is what Katy (Ms. Modiste) prefers too.
DeleteWhere oh where in TO can you find someone who fits the less well-endowed?
ReplyDeleteYou know, I have to be honest, I don't shop for bras locally anymore - I haven't in a couple of years so I'm not necessarily up on the best spaces. What I would say is that your options are good in a wider variety of locations. Here's what I'd suggest: some specialty boutiques (and I can't recommend one cuz they've all pissed me off in a variety of ways) like (for example) the Bra Bar and Tryst. Not recommending them, just saying they've worked for many. Holt Renfrew is great for the small-breasted ladies. Everything they have there seems to top out a D. They also have awesome luxury brands. If you're looking for something less pricey, the Calvin Klein store on Bloor at Avenue has some good alternatives for the rather small breasted.
DeleteMy fave brands for women who do not require larger styles are: Agent Provocateur (kind of fetishy, but in a fun way), Huit and Princess Tam Tam. You can easily buy these all online. A limited assortment of Huit and PTam are avail. on Figleaves. They are also, generally, available locally but you'll probably pay less if you buy online.
You may not have to pay lots to get the support you require, but you will def have to pay more if you want really stylish and well made lingerie.
I've been fitted as a 38DDD a few times semi-recently, but only found one comfortable bra (at Macy's in NYC). Bought three of them, but the wires are poking through on two of the three by now.
ReplyDeleteFinding bras that fit and aren't super-ugly is really, really hard for me. Likewise, finding shirts that fit over the "perkier," better-fitting bras.
Urgh...
What brand did you buy from Macy's? If you would like to take your under bust measurement (no bra) and full bust measurement (with bra on) and email me, maybe I can help you to find some lovely bras in a size that will work well for you - and that won't cost a fortune.
DeleteHas anyone heard of the Rixie Clip bra band tightener? It is the perfect solution for anyone struggling to find a bra that coordinates the correct cup and band size for them!! It is fully adjustable as well, and can easily be removed from one bra to another, so no permanent alterations to any of your garments!! YAY! I found them on facebook, and through there they have a link to ebay where I purchased mine. LOVE IT!!!
ReplyDeleteThere's a review of them on Brittany's blog, thinandcurvy.com. She liked them. I may try them on my annoyingly loose 30 band bras from Simone Perele and Chantelle that some Nordstrom salesperson sold me.
ReplyDelete