I have a sense this post is going to be all over the map. In theory, it's about bra-sizing and about how it's changed substantially since the 1940s, and why. But I know it's going to get somewhat mired in my complicated feelings about a particular style of lingerie blog - I'll call it the modern lingerie blog, not to imply that if one's lingerie blog doesn't conform to the model it isn't modern.
Let's kick off with that topic, shall we?
I love the UK and its lingerie market so much I can't stand it. First nation to recognize that many women have large breasts, and small frames, and good taste, and sex appeal, I really think the British are pioneers. Not to mention that they're the only ones who seem to make great-looking things that are also affordable. And that they have awesome online resources. You can't get me off my soap box on this one.
It shouldn't be a surprise, given this British facility and the culture that supports it and has sprung up as a result of it, that bloggers would seize on the opportunity to speak about their experiences and to share what they have learned.
That's what we style and fashion bloggers do. We put on great clothing and talk about why it's great and what makes us feel good. We deconstruct the intimacy and semiotics of garments. Body language, indeed.
But to reinsert the personal into the political: No question, I'm an exhibitionist. A remarkably vain one. Hopefully, a chic one. Most definitely, a communicative one :-) Under the right circumstances, I'm also a pretty apt voyeur. I do not believe in censorship. I routinely swear like a sailor in front of my kid (who doesn't ever swear as a result, weirdly, not that I'd care). She can watch and read pretty much what she likes, as long as she asks for clarification if she has any questions. I know my way around some fairly gritty areas of the web.
My point is that I'm not opposed to sharing my image and I'm not opposed to seeing the unvarnished images of others. Be who you want to be with me.
At the same time, I'm a professional. I'm a private person. I have a career and a community and I regularly censor my content within my own parameters because I don't want to be entirely knowable to, potentially, every human being on the planet at any time between now and the end of days. At this point, I'm sure some of you are laughing. What about that post you did on childbirth?, you're thinking. In the words of one of my friends: No one on the planet talks more about her boobs than you.
I have my parameters for privacy, as does every other blogger in the land.
Why then am I somewhat conflicted about the modern lingerie blog, that which profiles its writer modeling the latest lingerie and speaking about its relative merits and detractions? This blog-type is reinforced by contests hosted in the UK such as Star in a Bra (I'll let you link to it.) These blogs are legitimately about the undergarments and how they fit. They're also about body image. Many of the modern lingerie bloggers are rather curvy. They speak about the challenges of finding good, and gorgeous, support garments in sizes upwards of 30H. Many are rather sexy. They're young (early 20s); they're sassy. They have large breasts on small frames.
I'm sorry to be the one pointing at the obvious which we may not want to consider as it moves in the direction of infringement on modernity and personal freedom, but there seems no way to show oneself feeling confident and lovely wearing merely a bra and knickers when one is young and one's chest is, relatively speaking, ultra-voluptuous without bordering on a very different genre.
I don't mean to sound like someone's mother but, what about when these women decide to work at a bank or a law firm? It's statistically improbable that every one of them is going to continue in a life of non-conformism. What about when they meet a new guy and they just want to go out on a dinner date? The ubiquitous Google search is really gonna get in the way of that.
On the other hand, it is a kind of public service they're performing (and, arguably, a new kind of performance art form). Imagine being a young woman with large breasts and a small frame and not knowing how the fuck to wear anything and to feel good about how everything goes together given that all images of sexy women, heretofore, have been either in porn (mimicking her body shape) or in fashion modeling (the world of curve artifice, having no bearing on her shape in the least). I have been that woman and it isn't nice. I have also been my own lingerie pioneer lo the last 25 years and it would have been far less lonely to have some sistahs.
Things don't change without invested parties changing them. Many bloggers, such as myself, routinely proclaim the value of well-fitting lingerie and give advice on how to find and wear it. Why shouldn't the next-wave of this information-sharing be more, um, visual? Perhaps I'm responding more to the style of photography than the photography itself? Maybe I'm having my own "When I was a girl, we walked 5 miles in the snow to school..." moment?
I'm choosing not to link to these blogs because I don't want to associate my ambivalence with what they're doing. I know they blog with integrity and in the spirit of promoting good body image. If you're unfamiliar with this style of blog you can check out Fuller Figure Fuller Bust or Invest in Your Chest. There are quite a few of these blogs around right now.
I really would love to engage in debate here. What do you think? Is what you think so clouded by your age and stage that you wonder if it's relevant :-) Would you blog in this way? Do you value the information you can gain from these sites - I sure do.
(Oh, and I guess multiple topics notwithstanding, bra-size is going to have to be the topic of another post...)
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You make all the points I would make.
ReplyDeleteI will take it farther: I think doing a service here (addressing issues of fit, body image, etc.) is trumped by the danger of one's visibility to (potential) employers, colleagues, offspring, family members, in-laws, lawsuit participants, etc. Expressing oneself is not the same in this highly public day and age. I read all the time about people whose Facebook photos are found by concerned parents and employers, and people who've been Googled, and the fallout that results.
It might be possible to have an anonymous blog with headless photos if one wanted to model lingerie, because then there might be some shred of protected anonymity. However, it could be misconstrued as lightly pornographic, and simple searches can reveal identities in any case.
All I have to do is picture my step-daughter with this type of blog would be a good idea, and I'm completely mortified.
I think I'm officially an old fart.
I couldn't help but think of my daughter too. And, that got me thinking about how I'd probably feel better seeing a 41 yr old woman doing this because she's likely in a position that she a) truly knows what it means to go out there in that way and b) is life experienced enough to know how handle the long term consequences. And to keep herself safe, theoretically. Not that I think there is a way to do this without some risk.
DeleteI hope (although I'm not at all certain) that we'll reach a point in another decade or so where everyone's history, from high school hijinx to weird hobby obsessions, will be so out there and part of the public record that we just won't even be able to care anymore. It's probably a lot like getting a tattoo---something which may impact your job prospects and professional image, rightly or wrongly, and while it may be easier or harder to cover up, it can be very hard to remove. Hmm, I like that analogy, actually. Our online presence is a kind of digital tattoo. Hehe. Anyway---something young people (especially teenagers) should think about. I mean, my eleven-year-old was perfectly cool with the idea of modeling her new bralette for my blog. And I'm actually glad that came up because it gave us a chance to discuss this kind of issue. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of idealism, and living as if it doesn't matter, because it shouldn't. And then you fight the battle, if it comes up, because it's a battle that needs to be fought.
ReplyDeleteHrmm, not sure if I'm contributing anything here. If I ever become so unhinged as to make my own lingerie, I'll let you know where I end up falling practically, as I'm sure I'll be wanting to show it off---but I, too, am pretty reluctant to post pictures of myself in my underwear to the Internet.
I love your analogy: the digital tattoo! Except there ain't no having it removed. I think, like me, you're pretty comfortable with your online image and you lean towards the exhibitionism side of the fence :-) But you've had some life experience through which to focus that impulse. Something tells me, your nonconformist self is held back by that life experience because it's compelling. In youth, freedom is the only thing that seems compelling.
DeleteI share the same reservations as you but, as with any decision in life, as long as they're informed of the risks and benefits, I think they're good to go. I'm never going to feel comfortable with the idea myself, but if they do, go them! When I was younger, I had a number of piercings. I would go to job interviews and think, "if they don't want to hire me with a nose ring, it's probably not the sort of place I want to work." Ironically, even though I no longer have a nose ring, I actually think the same logic still stands! And yes, that's closing some doors for myself... but in a way, they're probably doors that should be closed because I doubt I would be happy in a corporate culture that conservative, for more reasons than just my inability to wear a nose ring.
ReplyDeleteI think considering blogs like this make me nervous because I wonder if they have really and truly considered the consequences... but frankly, that's not up to me. And there are plenty of workplaces out there that won't give a damn what you're doing in your spare time (my last workplace being one of them!) Sometimes narrowing the field isn't actually a bad thing, really. It depends on your goals.
K: The problem is that I don't think most of these women are adequately informed. They don't understand (with the benefit of hind site) that these images will never go away, regardless of whether they someday would prefer that (not that they will). It's not just a matter of potentially closing doors - it's a matter of potentially being a different person with a different image in the future and not being able to disassociate from a former image.
DeleteBTW, in theory, the new image could be even more nonconformist (for want of a better word) than this one. It still wouldn't jibe, necessarily, with the previous one.
I should say I don't have a tattoo because I change my mind every 10 minutes and I know whatever I might get, however meaningful in the moment, I wouldn't want it next year. And I'll also disclose that I rarely want to talk about my own previous images. I loathe it when friends remind me of my younger self. Thank god I didn't put it out there on FB :-)
I share Elizabeth's reservations and like ms. modiste worry about young women truly considering potential consequences. I would attribute this to being older, but my 26 year old daughter feels the same way. She's personally aware of several situations in which digital tattoos damaged reputations, at least in terms of employment prospects.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to hear about this happening because it means it's not just theoretical. Thanks for sharing your daughter's experience...
DeleteI have nothing against female bloggers who choose to blog about their lingerie, how to wear it, style it, or (more importantly and of greater benefit to me as a reader) how to construct it and how to check for fit. It's also the internet and it's a subject of free speech. If you don't want to read it, then don't go to that site.
ReplyDeleteI'm also a big proponent of "if you've got it, flaunt it". If I ever start sewing lingerie I have no issues posting pictures of myself in it on my site. It would be no different than me in a blouse or a skirt that was home sewn.
I definitely know what it's like to be judged based on outward appearances (especially sexually) and to work as a woman in a male-dominated field (programming), where I feel I have to prove my intelligence and skills much more than the guy next to me just because I am a girl.
In full disclosure, a few years ago I used to work as professional dominatrix at night while I had a day job as a programmer. I definitely know the objectification, egos, the catty women, the competitiveness and the shallowness of the sex industry. I've also known what it's like to be judged by those close to me for having worked as a dominatrix. It used to bother me when I was younger, but now I know if a person is not open-minded enough to accept me for who I am and my actions 100% of the time, they are not valuable to me as a friend. I also don't care now who knows about my past. You can't live your life for fear of what other people will think, you must live it for yourself.
In addition I have a 3/4 sleeve tattoo (which I cover up for job interviews), but I have no issues with showing it at work. I also don't work for a bank or a government agency (I work in advertising) and I don't interface with clients on a daily basis.
I'd say it is possible to be in both worlds, but it's very lonely as you're an outcast in both. I was an outcast in the sex industry because I had a day job, and I never felt fully understood in my day job because I worked in fetish.
Ah, so here's a flipside perspective! The thing about your dominatrix work is that (I presume) it wasn't on the internet. I completely understand that it contextualizes your perspective - but if, one day, you should decide to forget it ever happened (not that you would or should, natch) you would be free to do so except within the confines of a fairly closed-circuit community. The sleeve tattoo is a more apt comparator, IMO, with the lingerie modeling because it's one of those "counterculture" things that prospective employers might take issue with. Mind you, I work with lots of people in a fairly conventional and conservative workplace and many of them have tattoos, large ones, if not sleeves. And I don't think tattoos, unless they're sexually explicit, would have the same impact as an online sexy photo. Of course, time was, they might have.
DeleteI hope that, over the course of time, the many sides of yourself will feel joined in one world. I've found that life experience has made me much more comfortable being many things in many places.
And there's no denying that the lingerie blogs are very helpful in helping many of us to determine shape, size and fit of a fine crop of modern undergarments. I read them for that reason, so I say, if it works for you and you've considered the impacts, flaunt away!
"what about when these women decide to work at a bank or a law firm? " -- you can say that for 99% of the content on Facebook. I just shudder!
ReplyDeleteAs you know, I'm not on FB. I find that one's privacy is increasingly infringed on with numerous social media channels intersecting. At a certain point, it becomes difficult to remember what you said to what audience, and anybody can reconstruct a very personal - and potentially inaccurate - story out of bits and bobs.
DeleteHaving had something like 15 or 20 entire posts "blog-scraped" and included as part of someone else's Fake Blog, I can only speculate about what someone might feel should their lingerie photos be presented in a completely different (ahem) context. My posts included fairly innocuous WIW posts interspersed with photos and descriptions of our holiday in France, but it was very disturbing to see them in between posts about powerful motorcycles and "hot women" draped over car hoods at an Asian Car Show (yeah, really). My life in someone else's narrative. I took some action, got some of them removed, but eventually came to terms with them just being out there (because it would have been too life-consuming to pursue). I can't help thinking what if those had been more revealing posts -- intimate stories I'd trusted my readers to understand or photos of . . . well, me in lingerie (HA! never going to happen).
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that many of these young women are not yet able to comprehend just how gone these images are from their control AND just how much that could make a difference in scenarios (hiring, yes, but also networking, career advancement) that seem too remote to care about at the moment.
As for old fogey-ness, I plead guilty chronologically, at least, but I know my 3 adult daughters would feel the same way -- and I'll do my best to make sure my granddaughter does too!
Of course, you really have been on the wrong end of privacy invasion! I think it's important to speak with people who've had this experience. It's so violating - and you were clothed. Imagine if you'd only been wearing a bra?!
DeleteHonestly, some of the issues you mentioned are why I use a nom-de-blog. NOT that I pose in lingerie on my blog, but I feel that if a future employer googles my name, I don't necessarily want them to see the picture I posted of how my bum looks in the dress I just finished, all my talk about bust fitting last summer (complete with pictures), and posts with the word "crotch" or "boning". LOL - All fairly normal things if you sew, but could lead someone not in-the-know to make different judgements about me.
ReplyDeleteOK, you are obviously more on the "maintain anonymity" end of the spectrum than me :-) I do think it's ok to write about these odd sounding things. I believe that prospective employers (and btw, I tell my prospective employers about my fashion/style/sewing blog) will look at more than just keywords. But, again, that's just my take on things. I'm taking my own calculated risks.
DeleteI'm addicted to those blogs. It's nice to see the bras on real, non-photoshopped bodies. I'm also fairly sure that InvestInYourChest works in an office.
ReplyDeleteI'm new to that blog and haven't read far enough back to intuit that. But very interesting information. I agree that pics of real bodies are very refreshing! So much nicer to look at than air brushed ones.
DeleteI must admit, when I read that there was a genre of "fashion" blogs dedicated to under-fashions my first thought was "Readers wives"
ReplyDeleteDo the blog owners realise this? I bet their deleted comment folders have a story to tell. Otherwise the blogs would be private- subscriber only.
Xx
Oh, I bet they do have some stories to tell! I'm not sure that making the blogs private would really accomplish the (worthy) goal of getting the word out about lingerie and how it looks on real bodies. But it would be safer for the women involved.
DeleteHindsight is definitely 20/20. In my late teens/early 20s I considered becoming a makeup artist and compiled many photos of myself for my portfolio. Because I was young and dumb, FB and Myspace seemed like a good way to network and get my image out there. A while ago I went back through my pictures and was horrified by what I had posted. What I had imagined as arty and model-like were downright porn-face. This also explained the random friend requests from male strangers. I was so embarrassed and immediately deleted them from my page.
ReplyDeleteI see the same thing happening with my younger family and friends. 12-14 yr old girls posting with suggestive clothing and come-hither expressions. In this day and age, they know what they're doing, and all their little friends comment on their beauty and boost their confidence.
Do I have a problem with this? Yes. They are children and they will most certainly be some kind of repercussion. They just don't realize it yet.
I have no issue with an adult posting informative and helpful reviews of a product. I applaud their confidence. I wouldn't do it myself. I lack the confidence and am too paranoid about who might come across my image. That said, I hope it doesn't come back to bite them in the ass.
Everyone is judging you, it's a fact. I have two visible tattoos. Most of the reactions (to my face) have been bafflement. "Why would you do that?" The negative comments were said when they thought I was out of hearing range. I wasn't. :) I know that I open myself up to gossip when they're visible. With that said, I can easily cover them with both clothing and makeup if I choose to. I work in early education. That, combined with my husband's career, keep me from getting any more visible ink. You pick your battles. For now, it's not worth the hassle of covered them, or defending myself against assumptions of my character.
Andrea: Thank you for this really articulate comment on the topic. When I look back on what I did in my youth (thankfully, we didn't really have the internet back then!), I cringe. Your perspective (which I share, btw) that everyone is judging, is really on point, in my opinion. No matter what we do, we're opening ourselves up to criticism. I don't have any tattoos or piercings, not because I don't find them attractive, but because a) I'm capricious. How will I know if I'm still into it in 5 years? and b) I prefer to be "stylishly visible" in ways that I can put on and take off at will.
DeleteI had this post open all day when you wrote it and just couldn't get my thoughts together to reply. I think your series of posts prompted me to tackle bras again for my next project and I've posted a few failures from my past. I did comment on a few of the questions you've asked.
ReplyDeleteThese were thought provoking and inspiring, thanks for writing them.